Warning: Controversy Ahead. Buckle up.
This article
Rick Warren’s Presence at Azusa Street Questioned
tipped me off to the ongoing “Azusa Street Centennial” currently being held in Los Angeles. It is a celebration, of course, of the 100th anniversary of the Azusa Street phenomenon, which is widely seen as the impetus for the modern charismatic movement. Now, I do not consider myself, of course, to be “charismatic”; at the same time, I certainly appreciate many of my charismatic brethren and sistern. I do not believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience to the salvation event in one’s life, nor do I believe that that event is marked by the ability to speak in tongues. I don’t want to limit God and suggest that in no circumstance could tongues possibly be a gift given by God in this age; He’ll do what He chooses. That said, I understand Holy Spirit baptism to take place at the time of salvation; I understand that the Spirit sovereignly bestows gifts upon the church today; I believe that each believer has at least one gift; I believe that no gift is normative for all believers, nor evidence determining the reality of one’s salvation. All of that said, I don’t have a problem accepting as fellow believers those who differ with me on that point.
But here is the problem I have with the contemporary charismatic movement, and this Azusa shindig (and yes, I consider it disappointing that Rick Warren chose to participate) illustrates it well: concomitant with Pentecostal theology there tends to be an unfortunate unwillingness to exercise discernment on the part of a huge segment of the Pentecostal/charismatic crowd. Evidence of this is the roster of speakers for this event. They include the charlatan Benny Hinn, Faith/Prosperity quacks Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, and Fred Price, and questionable-at-the-least-on-the-Trinity T.D. Jakes. Rod Parsley is there…icck. I’m sorry, but I have a massive problem with this (not that anybody asked me!). Where is the discernment? And the answer is that it isn’t there, that unfortunately one of the stepchildren of this movement appears to be such an ungrounded experientialism that the Word of God becomes secondary, and doctrinal issues are relegated to the back burner.
Frankly, it’s a lot easier for me to swallow an honest difference in theological understanding regarding the working of the Holy Spirit than it is for me to accept this gross lack of discernment, this unwillingness to draw lines between truth and heresy. Much as I don’t mind—and even in some ways welcome—the idea of joining hands together across denominational lines to proclaim Christ, it is precisely this issue, illustrated by events such as this, that make me shrink back, at least from jumping in gung-ho with some charismatic brethren. I’m not sure that “lack of discernment” is the most problematic shortcoming of the contemporary evangelical church, but it’s certainly right up there.
This phrase comes from the 1978 "Jonestown massacre" in which most members of the Peoples Temple cult, blindly following their leader Jim Jones, committed suicide by drinking cyanide-laced Kool-Aid.
Osborne: A Contrarian's Guide to Knowing God
Schlossberg: Idols For Destruction
Vigilius
Thursday April 27th 2006 at 1:23 pmI guess it is only controversial if you have people of that theological persuasion who would take issue with you. As for Warren attending the conference, the servant is responsible to his Master.
Romans 14.4 "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls." (ESV)Byron
Thursday April 27th 2006 at 8:59 pmSure, Rick will ultimately answer to Jesus for whatever decisions he makes. That does not, though, preclude the discussion of the rightness or wrongness of an individual’s actions in the light of Scripture. In fact, we are REQUIRED to judge, a fact I make clear in two posts entitled, “Why I Judge, and You Should To” (Part 1) and “Why I Judge, and You Should To” (Part 2), and another excellent post by Scot McKnight on the subject. Romans 14:4 in no way, shape, or form precludes the discussion of whether or not Rick Warren—or anyone else—ought to speak at such a conference.
rev-ed
Friday April 28th 2006 at 7:18 amI agree wholeheartedly with the lack of discernment angle. I’m unsure of what to do with Warren showing up with Dollar, Copeland & Hinn. Billy Graham used to write pieces for the Nat’l Enquirer, but I don’t think it’s the same thing.
Mark Merritt
Tuesday May 2nd 2006 at 10:40 amByron, seems like they’re discerning dollars there, not God’s will.
I wonder what Rick’s motivation for attending is?
To reach out across denominational barriers? More PR? To sell more books?
Warm Tarheel
Wednesday May 3rd 2006 at 10:20 pmSounds like a hyperfaith lovefest.
Not sure I could stomach that type of thing any longer.
There are a few discerning charismatic churches out there, and I now belong to one.
But, sadly, many other charismatic churches all too easily fall victim to every wind of doctrine and every multi-tiered marketing scam and the manipulative, money-grubbing televangelists. Too much feeling, not enough thinking. God gave us both a brain and a heart. Gotta use both.
tony
Thursday May 4th 2006 at 5:52 pmCan anyone PLEASE confirm if Yonghi Cho and / or Rick Warren actually spoke at this jamboree? I have searched all over and not found confirmation. There seems to be a deafening silence SINCE the event, LAST WEEK! Is everyone still on the carpet? (forgive the flippant note!!)
tony
Thursday May 4th 2006 at 7:08 pmAt last, I have found evidence of Rick Warren’ particvipation in the event
}http://www.evangelicalnews.org/indiv_pr.php?pr_id=5779
‘”Ministry is tiring; when you are fatigued you are vulnerable,” stated Rick Warren, pastor of the Saddleback Church and author of the mega best seller, The Purpose Driven Life. Warren spoke in the track, The Spirit-Filled Local Church Around the World.’
So he did share the platform with Benny Hinn, Yonghi Cho and others who have long strayed from the original Gospel…
Byron
Thursday May 4th 2006 at 9:46 pmThanks, Tony.
tony
Friday May 5th 2006 at 8:58 amE.mail confirmation from Azusa Street press Dept (azusastreet@alarryross.com) QUOTE:
Pastor Cho did speak at an evening plenary session. Pastor Warren did two workshops.
-Giles
Giles Hudson
Director of Media Relations
972.267.1111 ext. 207
469.774.6377 – cell
ghudson@alrcommunications.com
http://www.alrcommunications.com — UNQUOTE
‘Pastor’ Cho is way off into New Age prosperity, no suffering stuff- (let alone Benny Hinn) I was given his latest book, FULL of heresy, but have sadly mislaid it.
Why did Rick Warren share this platform, one asks – publicity stunt?
Byron
Saturday May 6th 2006 at 7:45 pmI don’t know how germane it is to ask “why”; we can guess at motives all day long and be wrong. What is more germane is to consider the wisdom of doing this, and I just don’t consider this a wise move at all. Rick is a great guy, but the longer he goes on, the more his actions are disconcerting. This isn’t the first thing he’s done recently that merits concern. We can go to his comments about “fundamentalists”; his column in a women’s magazine (Women’s Day? I forget.); the watered-down theology of PDL; now this. I appreciate much about Rick and his ministry, but I’m really concerned with the course he has taken of late.
Peter Kwiatkowski
Wednesday May 24th 2006 at 6:30 pmYour right. That Azusa centennial nonsense is nothing but a freak-show. Having just finished writing a pentecostal theology book (unpublished); I can hardly believe the list of characters who are posing as pentecostals
Kathleen
Saturday April 12th 2008 at 1:10 amRick Warren has been promoting new-age/eastern religious practices such as “contemplative” or “centering” prayer, which is not truly prayer at all, but a Zen Buddhist /Hindu/new-age practice adopted by new age proponents as well as by the catholic church. This “prayer is not prayer at all, but is the achieving of altered states of consciousness (trance state)by repeating a “mantra” which can be any word, or focusing even on your breath – the purpose is to open the person up to spiritual beings and their influence, but they promote it for “Hearing” God.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/PressReleasekenblanchard.htm
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/rick_warren_new_age.html
Kathleen
Saturday April 12th 2008 at 1:16 amMany others who we would never consider proponents of these new-age practices are known and respected people within the Christian community such as Beth Moore, Max Lucado etc. Many of them collaborated on the DVD “Be Still and Know that I am God.”
oops, my website wasn’t listed.
for more info, I am getting ready to post some blogs at myspace.com/Heavendreamr It’s not up yet, but keep your eyes open for some revealing information regarding these end-times. The Lord has given me some specifics.
Be on guard against the “Christ-Sign” – this was revelation from the Lord, it hasn’t been announced by any humans that I am aware of!