The No Kool Aid Zone

Spoken like a true cultural elitist who has lost his grasp on reality.

Don ~ Jan 16, 2006 at 6:05 pm

Thank you for getting his response. I suggest everyone who is upset with the casting of Chad go and reach out to a gay person, show them the love of Jesus and shut up their griping about a movie. Live Jesus.

Carole Turner ~ Jan 16, 2006 at 9:09 pm

I am not going to comment on the director’s remarks, but to Carole, I think that your first point is well-taken, but as to your second, exercising discernment is about “living Jesus”.

Byron ~ Jan 16, 2006 at 9:22 pm

“Shut up…?” What a tolerant thing to say. Why do people automatically assume that because we disapprove of the gay lifestyle we must also hate gays? Talk about being judgmental. It’s not very loving to tolerate a lifestyle that results in pain and destruction. The fact is that the Jesus who said “suffer the little children to come unto me” is the same Jesus that drove the money changers out of the temple and told the adulterous woman to “go and sin no more.” Jesus demonstrated that real love does not mean tolerating sin. He suffered and died on a cross to pay the penalty for sin and to free us from the slavery of sin. Righteousness and love are not mutually exclusive. They are both living Jesus.

Don ~ Jan 17, 2006 at 9:39 am

Let me start by saying that if you are offended by Chad playing this part, I have no problem with you not going to see the movie….. I believe one should look at this on an individual basis, how you respond could differ on where you stand in your walk with God….thus I do have a slight problem with a pastor suggesting to his church that they should not see this film, in doing so you only hinder the story being told and assist in Chad’s “agenda”. If a Christian goes to this film without knowing about Allen, and is inspired, is this individual to be rebuked?? or told that he/she should have had a different reaction?? I agree with ETE’s response, this is a movie about an incredible story about an Amazing God, not about the advancement of homosexuality. If Mr. Allen desired to be in this film God can surely use him. To say that you are being “tolerant” if you go see this film is a bit much in my view….

josh ~ Jan 17, 2006 at 8:54 pm

Not sure, Josh, who you’re addressing vis a vis “pastor”, so let me tell you what I decided to do/say this past Sunday. I thought about telling folks that they should not see the film, but then decided against it, saying that it was up to them (duh), but that I was withdrawing my own personal endorsement of it. I did not want folks going to the film because I had recommended it, and then finding out later that Chad Allen had been cast in the role.

I do not have a problem agreeing that this is probably “an incredible story about an Amazing God”; I have no thought that ETE is doing this to advance homosexuality; would never accuse them of that. I’ve said in many forums on the web that God certainly can use this film; He uses what He chooses to use. I don’t think Chad Allen is necessarily using this film to further his agenda; I have no clue what his motives are.

My beef with the whole thing is that a Christian company is telling an explicitly Christian story (setting it off in my mind from films like Lord of the Rings and Narnia–a Disney production), and used no discernment in their choice of actors, but rather chose someone who not only is homosexual, but an activist in the cause, to play the role of a sold-out man of God like Nate Saint. Then, this company promotes it to my church as a spiritually-uplifting thing. It’s not Chad that offends me; it’s a “Christian” company using a total lack of discernment that bothers me. I do not want to patronize the film for the same reason that I don’t want to listen to Jimmy Swaggart preach nor Amy Grant sing.

If we are Christians, our desire ought to be to do God’s work God’s way. Telling the story is God’s work; IMHO, using a homosexual activist in a leading role to help tell it is not doing it God’s way.

Byron ~ Jan 17, 2006 at 9:53 pm

Before I begin my long statement of what I believe and why I believe it, I would like to state that all my beliefs are based upon what the Bible says as I believe that the Bible was inspired by God himself.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” he also created all that is in the earth. When looking at what the Bible says as a whole, one must first understand that we are a people of sin or that no one is perfect. It says in the Bible that no one sin is greater than another, they all share equal weight in heaven when we stand before God on His appointed Judgment Day; therefore my belief is that homosexuality is a sin but that doesn’t prevent me from having compassion toward all people. By no means am I a perfect person, as I have stated earlier no one is perfect; therefore, we as imperfect people, myself included, must even rethink the choices we make. These choices can either hinder our relationship with God or help us have a stronger relationship with God. Though I am a Christian I still am not a perfect person, but knowing I am not perfect I try to do what is pleasing to God by conforming my life more to how God wants me to be, even when I do face temptation and sometimes I give in to that temptation, I still know that I am weaker than God and I need to depend more on him to get me through my temptations.

My point is, we should not judge others for being what they are, in the end it is God that judges people, not people judging people. Why tell others of their imperfectness when you yourself are not perfect? We as Christians need to understand that to be a testimony to others you must be a friend first, because it is hard to be a friend, but it is not hard to judge others of what they are rather than who they are. When we take the easy way out and judge others, we do nothing to proclaim the greatness of God, but when we conquer the hard, people have noticed and the testimony of the conqueror will be that he couldn’t have done it on his own. In the end it was with the help of God that he was able to conquer the hard. The latter part of what I was saying should be the effect of this movie on a person as these missionaries and their families have conquered the impossible and after so many years their lives are affecting others and their legacy lives on. If an imperfect person can do that then think of what God can do in all walks of life and his legacy will live on forever. Just remember a stone is worth more than gold in God’s eyes.

Stephanie ~ Jan 18, 2006 at 3:42 am

On Larry King, Chad said words to the effect that folks were upset with him for being in “End of the Spear.”

My beef, like yours Byron, is not with Chad, but with ETE. Had they not promoted the movie so heavily amongst evangelical Christians, the opposition to the movie would not be so strong. Their credibility is diminished, and they are going to have a more difficult time promoting their future movies amongst evangelicals.

JohnBrian ~ Jan 18, 2006 at 7:49 am

Stephanie, I agree with all of your paragraph of stated beliefs, with the one exception that I’d challenge you to show me where in the Bible it says that no one sin is greater than the other.

To your second paragraph, my first question is, “who is being judged?” Chad Allen has admitted that he is a homosexual activist, and I have spent exactly no time dwelling on that or castigating him for it. Is agreeing with him “judging” him? Further, the issue is about Every Tribe Entertainment; I AM judging that they made a wrong decision to cast Mr. Allen in the role. But if it is wrong for me to “judge” ETE, then was it wrong for Martin Luther to “judge” that the Catholic church was teaching heresy, or for the Nicene Council to “judge” that Arius was teaching heresy, or for evangelical believers to “judge” that Mormon theology is wrong? Of course not; we all judge; we all SHOULD judge; we all MUST judge. The question is what yardstick we are using, for Jesus commanded us to judge…He said, “judge righteous judgment”. In other words, make your judgments—for we cannot help making judgments—on the basis of honesty and truth, rather than our own predilections.

It is not by any stretch of the imagination some vendetta I have against Chad Allen that causes me to reach the conclusion I do; again, my beef isn’t with him but with ETE. My strong preference would be to support this film; if you read all of the things I’ve written, going back to my first post, you read that I truly, truly hate to take the position I have taken. And yet, because I believe that God’s work must be done God’s way, and because I believe that that is not the case here, I must speak out. The church in America is anemic because we fail to be discerning.

Now, it’s surely possible that I’m wrong here, but do understand that I’m not getting my jollies by trying to tear down this film. I do believe that God can use this film; so many of us have been challenged through the years by this story. God can use anything, and I have no doubt that He will use this film. That is a different question, though, than whether or not things were done right in the first place.

Byron ~ Jan 18, 2006 at 9:25 am

My beef, like yours Byron, is not with Chad, but with ETE. Had they not promoted the movie so heavily amongst evangelical Christians, the opposition to the movie would not be so strong. Their credibility is diminished, and they are going to have a more difficult time promoting their future movies amongst evangelicals.

Maybe I feel differently because I had heard no advance hype from ETE. I hadn’t heard the film was being made until last weekend.

But there is a difference, in my opinion, between seeing a movie and seeing an actor. I think anyone with a lick of discernment can watch the movie without being convinced that homosexuality is OK. Personally, if my ISP had been out for a month, I’d have never known anyone was gay, nor would I have worried about it. It’s a movie, after all.

Myself, I don’t send people out to see movies. We saw “The Passion” as a group because of its intensity. Aside from that, I’ve recommended no film. But if anyone asks, I’ll tell them that it’s a great story and that there is a homosexual actor in it, but that doesn’t make homosexuality OK. I doubt anyone will have a problem figuring that out.

rev-ed ~ Jan 18, 2006 at 4:26 pm

My comment was dealing with pastors in general, but I was curious if you (Byron) planned to share your view with your congregation. I thought that I read somewhere in this massive blog that you planned to encourage FCC not to see it. Our church encouraged its congregation to go see the movie a few weeks back. I just don’t feel a worship service is the correct place to promote or dis-credit any movie…but I could be wrong…thanks for your feedback

josh ~ Jan 18, 2006 at 8:45 pm

What I had done, Josh, was to use the documentary on the missionaries’ killings as the backdrop for our entire service on 1/8. In that context, I mentioned that the film End of the Spear was coming out, and that it would tell this story. Having said that, at the very end of the 1/15 service, after everything else was done, I said that I had to withdraw my endorsement of the film. I hadn’t spent but a few seconds the week before (to my remembrance) mentioning the fact that the film was coming out (sure didn’t cheerlead for it in a major way), but having said that, I felt that I needed to retract those statements. I actually spent more time promoting The Passion than this.

Byron ~ Jan 18, 2006 at 8:56 pm

The casting of Chad coupled with the target marketing to evangelical Christians might certainly be listed in the “What were they Thinking!?!?” category, (especially if they were supprised at the backlash). That being said, to assume that someone who may not meet a “Gold Standard” for their own walk on this earth is reason to disqualify that individual from being used in a highly visible manner is to misunderstand some of the primary messages in the Bible:
Christ came to save ALL
ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God
Christ himsel CHOOSES and USES many who at first blush may not meet the ideal. (Truth be told, there is no one who does and anyone who says he does could use another look in the mirror)

Remember the RESULTS?:

Paul- the infamous killer of Christians
Rahab- the harlot of Jericho

Thoughts:

How many people will see this movie BECAUSE Chad Allen is in it who would otherwise not given it a second thought?

I don’t know Chad Allen, but I am CERTAIN of this: The whole story of Chad Allen hasn’t been written - It isn’t even complete yet! … and all those who believe they can predict the ending do so at great peril!

Lee ~ Jan 19, 2006 at 4:35 pm

Lee, I have to say that I agree with most all of what you say: Christ came to save all; all have sinned; Christ uses the most unlikely of people. I don’t misunderstand any of that. The whole story of Chad Allen has not been written, and sure, maybe there’ll be some folks who see this because Chad is in it. But all of that said, I think you’re missing some things:

Paul was chosen by God as he was, but he was changed by God prior to his being used for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel. Rahab is listed in the heroes of faith, indicating that she, too, was a changed individual. No one argues that God can use people from awful backgrounds, but God changes them prior to their being used. True, God used unregenerate folks for His purposes, but that was for things like judging His people Israel, not proclaiming the gospel.

The issue involves whether or not a Christian entity, wishing to publish the message of the gospel (and this is certainly what is being portrayed to churches in the promotional material), should use as messengers those who are engaged in the wholesale undermining of the message of the Bible. The promotion of homosexual marriage, just one of the things that activist Chad Allen is engaged in, is very contrary to Scripture and will, if enacted, undoubtedly hasten the demise of our culture. This is not a person that I believe should have been chosen by a Christian entity to portray the character of Nate Saint, any more than Eminem shouldn’t be cast by a Christian movie company as Billy Graham one day nor Snoog Dogg as E. V. Hill.

Byron ~ Jan 19, 2006 at 5:00 pm

Dude…who’s Snoog Dogg?

Don ~ Jan 19, 2006 at 5:29 pm

“SnooG” Dogg is SnooP Dogg’s brother. Everybody knows that…dude…

Byron ~ Jan 19, 2006 at 6:09 pm

I first read about the movie in an interview with producer Mart Green in Christianity Today.Was impressed by Mr.Green’s ministry attitude and his undertaking to make into film a story that has inspired many.I feel so disappointed when I read about the casting of a professed homosexual for reasons that Pastor Byron pointed out clearly in the Jan 17 posting. Of course we can reach out and hug a homosexual.Of course Hollywood can do what they please.But the attitude conveyed by the casting decision makes this film not much different than a Hollywood production, falling right in line with its trends.”What are they thinking?”is right.

Penny ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 5:22 am

ETE:

I am deeply grieved by your company’s willful failure to screen the background of the actors taking part in your films. Chad Allen’s involvement in sodomy has already destroyed the film’s credibility.

It also seems that you are not ashamed of Allen’s participation in “Corpus Christi.” This play, which depicts Jesus Christ as a homosexual who engages in sex with his disciples, is proudly displayed on the “End of the Spear” website as one of Allen’s credentials.

I strongly advise you to honor God and pull the film. Since this is unlikely to happen, I encourage you to ensure that this movie will never be sold after it runs its cycle in the movies.

In regards to Jim Hanlon’s comments of the film never having been made if you “only [worked] with people who were completely sanctified,” I find them lacking a Scriptural foundation. Jesus Christ does indeed completely sanctify the person who accepts His shed blood as payment for sin, and there are many extraordinarily talented, sanctified actors. Please do allow your business endeavors to get in the way of your Biblical studies.

I will pray that the Lord would cause those involved in your company to make some significant changes before more damage is done to the cause of Christ.

Michael ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 11:59 am

I heard the director of the movie on The Way of the Master radio today and he said they did not know Chad Allen was gay until after he was cast and that once they knew, they let him know they did not agree with his lifestyle. Sidenote: if he is such a gay activist, why have I never even heard of him or seen him in the media since he was a child actor?

Nonetheless, I do not understand the hub bub. God uses imperfect people all the time for His kingdom - I’m sure Paul was not perfect immediately after his conversion (i.e. I do what I don’t want to do, etc).

Main point: being gay is no worse than a Christian actor who deals with another sin (impatience, overeating). Yes, a Chrsitian man may have repented, but is imperfect nonetheless.

But those who have such a problem with Chad Allen being cast are not the ones who need to see the movie anyway - I pray that gay people will go see this movie and will repent and be born again.

Heather ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 1:12 pm

As a pastor who was sought out by ETE to help market End of the Spear, I feel betrayed now that I find out about Chad Allen’s casting as Nate Saint. Everything he is living for in his private life subverts the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the reason those five missionaries went to Ecuador for. I agee with JohnBrian - ETE’s credibility is diminished and they certainly will have a difficult time promoting their future movies with me.

If for no other reason, I think their decision to cast Chad was wrong and very unfortunate since his personal lifestyle and agenda get in the way of telling the otherwise deserving story of love, forgiveness, devotion to Christ and faithfulness. It just amazes me that so many in the American public compartmentalize issues like this. It reminds me of Bill Clinton’s re-election. By the time that election rolled around, the American public had enough evidence to prove his poor character and discredit his integrity, but they re-elected him anyway. Most did so with the notion that his private life is just that and that it didn’t have any bearing upon his professional life. Bologna! And in this instance, Chad Allen’s private life that he chose to make very public upstages the real story that ETE was trying to tell and they blew it completely by casting him in that roll. Futhermore, it is sad that Steve Saint is quoted as being in support of this casting.

Pastor Sam ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 1:54 pm

Heather,

I’d encourage you to read some of the other posts in order to get a feel for the “hubbub”. As I say repeatedly, God can use who/what He chooses, and none of us are perfect…but those are beside the point. I’d encourage you to read some of the other rationale posted on this site!

Thanks,
Byron

Byron ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 2:18 pm

Heather,

Gay people will not get saved as a result of seeing this movie since the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not shared in the movie. There is no call to repentance of sin and faith in Christ from what I’ve read from those who have seen the entire film. How can they be saved if the Gospel isn’t given? The value of this film is more directed to a Christian audience to inspire them to greater devotion and service to Christ and His kingdom. Sadly, because of Chad Allen’s casting as Nate Saint that won’t happen.

Pastor Sam ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 2:23 pm

Bryon,

Reading your posts I get the idea that you are the kind of pastor I like to fellowship with. More people need the discernment that is so evident in your posts. May our tribe increase!

Pastor Sam ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 2:29 pm

I think Christians often misunderstand tolerance; let’s instead go to God’s Word and act on His truth.

I haven’t heard anyone mention the important truth in 2 Corinthians 6:14 which is pertinent to this discussion: “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” Keep reading verses 15 to 18; it clearly speaks of the DISTINCTION we are to have from the world. “What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” Chad Allen is an unbeliever with his own ideas about God and morality. Nate Saint was a believer in Jesus Christ who stood firmly and unashamedly for the gospel. What do they have in common, in life or in film?

God raised up 5 humble, godly men in a remote jungle to influence the world for Christ; each was BORN AGAIN, which made all the difference. ETE should have taken that very seriously. Let’s pray for Chad Allen, friends; he has been exposed to the truth of Jesus Christ, and God may yet use that to change his heart.

Nanette ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 3:27 pm

I am amazed at some of the comments I am reading here. I purchased four tickets Sunday, asked both of my sons to go. We have always worried about our older son, I believe he is living in a homosexual lifestyle. I thought this would be a great film, hoping that God could use it. ABSOLUTELY, I would never in a million years go now! That would endorse the entire behavior.

There is a HUGE difference in a person that sins (we all do) and one that it is his practice, it is his lifestyle, all of you so called accepting people get your Bibles out. Read 1 Corinthinas 5:9, and 1 Corinthians 5:11, and 1 Corinthinas 6:9-11. Have nothing to do with sexaully immoral people! Sure we are to love them, but not to validate their lifestyle!

Stu ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 3:41 pm

One thing to remember here is that Chad Allen is an actor. This is his job. His being gay is not the issue but whether the story is being told accurately. I must admit I was a bit surprised to hear he had been cast in the role of Steve/Nate Saint but I’d rather see him as an unbeliever do a great job than see a Christian cast & do a not so good job. He’s not pushing his gay activities while in this role.

Jean ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 4:23 pm

Ok, that was pretty goofy to say, Jean. What is going on with Christians today? In the last day many will be deceived. Dear God, please don’t let me have blinders on. Don’t let me sit idley by for the sake of political correctness. My younger son, who is 22yrs. would flip out at this. he would totally croak if he went to this and found out he was gay. It doesn’t matter what anyone says, make it sound good, make it sound like “he’s just an actor this is his job”. It is ludicrist!!!! Very, very bad judgement!! While were at it, why don’t you say it doesn’t matter what you believe, all rhodes point to heaven. GIVE ME A BREAK! Many “so called Christians” are going to be some of the very one’s that make it possible for many to think they are allright, there is balck and white. And I believe this is one of those instances.

Stu ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 4:46 pm

What is not being considered is beyond the “face time” of Chad on the screen. As Christians, we are called to use our minds to the fullest and be excellent in all things, and therefore, we must consider this: by allowing a homosexual man to star in this film, we can assume that people will want to find out about him…especially our children. They will think he’s “cool” and he will have influence on them as does every other actor in film or TV. Should we be giving the homosexual community a platform? Automatically, for the reasons I’ve stated above, they infiltrate and we are called not to let that happen. Secondly, if this was meant to bridge a gap between Christians and homosexuals, because you can also assume that homosexuals will be attending the movie, there could be a much better way to reach out to them - perhaps at the end of the movie, give people a call to action to learn more about having a personal relationship with Christ and spending eternity with Him instead of in Hell. Thirdly, we are to be good stewards of our money, and to attend this movie will help to make Mr. Allen prosper. He is a homosexual activist, believes in homosexual marraige, homosexual adoption of children, has been in plays that degrade Christ and Christianity (Corpus Christi), and if we as Christians allow these actions, then our society will certainly continue to deteriorate and families will disintegrate, which will change everything about life as we know it. I will not fund any of those causes listed above. I think we all know that Mr. Allen will use this movie to further his own agenda, which is pushing the homosexual lifestyle. So, dear bloggers, this is much bigger than simply your own feelings and thoughts…we are called to live as the Bible tells us to live. The ramifications of doing nothing about this are much larger than “shutting up” and turning a blind eye toward what could quite possibly be a hidden agenda. Jesus was radical and while I am all about loving people, I love them so much, that I want to help them spend eternity with the Almighty, not with the great deceiver who is doing a great job in duping many of us into thinking it’s perfectly fine for a homosexual man to make a star appearance in a story about a deeply Christian family. Let’s start thinking about what we’re doing, the effects it will have on the world around us and our families, and let’s not be afraid of what people will think if we take a stand for what the Bible actually says. If Mr. Allen or any other homosexuals get angry with us for a little while while we witness to them, it’s a small price to pay for Infinite True Love. That is the outreach I’d like to see all of us have…not this wimpy, lukewarm, careful “love” that Jesus Himself never displayed. Thank you.

Christine ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 4:53 pm

I like the word shut up, which to some seems harsh but to me people lost in the gay lifestyle have heard all this over and over again. How we “love the sinner and hate the sin” they don’t see it but they hear it loud and clear. It’s not working, they are running the show and all we do is run our mouths. The fact is this guy is in this movie, use it to talk to your kids about the gay issue, start a discussion with a gay person about it, use this to reach a gay person for christ. Or better yet, serve a gay person like Jesus would and maybe your actions will speak louder then your words. We are here to reach the lost, not talk about how lost they are till we are blue in the face.

Carole Turner ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 5:55 pm

HU?? Use it to speak to your children about gays? What are you going to say, it’s ok, it doesn’t matter, we should condone their lifestyle? That is exactly what staring this gay man in the movie is doing. I don’t think so. The guy that cuts my hair is gay. My heart hurts for him, he is such a sweet boy. I am very good to him, I tip him large, I give him money for Christmas, I, in no way would ever look down on him, but to make him think he’s ok, no way that will never happen. That is what casting this gay young man is doing, it doesn’t matter, your ok. I will never do it. I will warn him that he will spend an eternity in hell if he doesn’t turn from his ways, and accept Jesus. It’s in our face everwhere, now in a Christian film. You say we Christians are the one’s that need to change, give me a break. They want to redefine marriage, the Bible and everything God stands for.
And yes, I do feel sorry for them, I don’t look down on them as a human, and yes, I do look down on their sin. Their sick of that, well, that is what being a Christian is. I won’t pretend everything is ok. Because it’s not.

Stu ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 6:57 pm

“If we are Christians, our desire ought to be to do God’s work God’s way. Telling the story is God’s work; IMHO, using a homosexual activist in a leading role to help tell it is not doing it God’s way.”

-from an earlier post

God forbid we should ever be so arrogant as to assume that we do God’s work. We don’t do God’s work; God does His work through us, if we submit to Him (John 15:4-5.) God doesn’t give a rip about what we can do for Him; He cares about what we will let Him do through us. I believe God told the story exactly the way He wanted to tell it. The fact that ETE was unaware of the situation (but God knew) lends some confirmation to that, and I believe that Steve Saint and ETE acted rightly once they found out. We don’t know all of the ways God is working through this film, and all the seeds that have been sown in the process. Allowing this man to act in this film involved him in the story, to the point of him spending some time in the jungle with the Waodani. If he came away from that experience unaffected, he must be a hard soul indeed.
Wait and see what fruit is produced, then decide. It won’t be a tough call: a bad tree can’t produce good fruit, and a good tree won’t produce bad fruit. I believe Stephanie is right–sin is sin–but some sins are certainly more dangerous than others, and right at the top of the list is the sin of pride. Watch out for that one, my brothers and sisters–it was the one that got Satan.

Dean ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 7:08 pm

I am really confused by many comments on this issue. I have read all of them. But according to everything I’m reading, I’m assuming most of you never watch TV or any movies. From many of your arguments, you should be separating yourselves completely from media of ALL kinds - not just this movie.

Heather ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 8:08 pm

Ah, the sin of pride. I’ve heard a lot of vaguely different things said here, but they are variations on a theme: God said we should avoid contact with the big bad gays. “They’re running the show.” “We MUST judge.” “Reach out to a gay person, show them the love of Jesus.” It makes me miss being in the ministry the way I might miss having stitches without lidocane.

I got out of the ministry for just this reason: everybody is so intent on proving that they’re right that they miss the one most true thing in this whole universe–the only sin that can send a man to hell is his refusal of the Grace offered by Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

Would you say that if something bad happened to a gay person that their lifestyle earned them that tragedy? Do gays deserve AIDS? I’d say no–not any more than a young man might deserve AIDS when he gets it from a blood transfusion, nor does his father deserve to be shunned and run out of the ministry for having a son with AIDS.

Another thing that bothers me is the business that the “ministry” has become. I walked into the Berean store here in Phoenix and saw a cocophany of garbage–candy, toys, t-shirts that said anything and everything a churchgoer could imagine, and books on everything from the blessings of Jabez to the horrors of the end times. Do we need all of this? It’s not a ministry, it’s a moneymaking venture. This movie is no different. Sure, I hope this movie speaks to people; but the company that made it is hoping to turn a profit. That’s what we’re all forgetting.

“The church in America is anemic because we fail to be discerning.” I believe Byron said this. I disagree. We’re anemic because we’ve forgotten that we all have one thing in common: our faith in Christ. Other differences should be set aside. Jesus condemned one group of people–the religious leaders. The only other time He is recorded as losing His temper with anyone is when He overturned the money lenders’ tables in the temple. I don’t think it would be any different today.

We need to stop making such a fuss about this kind of stuff. You only validate the so-called “agenda” of the people you disagree with when you make a crusade out of your beliefs. And if you keep up this way, you will see everything you believe is right being thrown back in your face.

One last thing…let’s talk about the more dangerous lifestyle. My younger sister, as straight as any of you, is an alcoholic, has experimented with drugs, and has lost track of the number of sexual partners she’s had in the last few years. I am a lesbian and I’m celibate. Now you can pass your holy judgement. I haven’t lost my faith or my salvation, but I have changed some of the fine details of my theology. See my webpage at http://www.myspace.com/azcrane or go to http://www. soulforce.org for more.

Mel ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 9:09 pm

What is wrong with you people? I cannot for a minute believe that anyone who has actually seen this film or knows any of the people involved would even dare to say that this movie does not present the clear gospel or say that the movie is not worthy of seeing because Chad Allen is gay.

I personally know Steve Saint, his family and Mincayni, and I know that the gospel was proclaimed loudly in this movie.

So many of you who are so quick to cast your ugly and demeaning comments go to the movies and watch TV on a regular basis. I find it hard to believe that any of you would be so nieve as to not realize that many of your favorite actors and actresses support causes that are anything but Christian. Many of them lead lifestyles that go 100% against the Word of God. Yet you still watch their shows and view their movies. I am willing to bet that many of you have taken your families to Disney movies and Disney in Florida hosts Gay Pride week every single year. Did you go see Narnia or did you avoid it as well?

How about sports figures, do you have a favorite team? I am willing to go out on a limb here and say that you do, and I am betting we can all find a player on that team that leads a lifestyle that is contrary to the Word. Many have been involved in incidents that are horrible, yet you still support the team.

If you say you don’t do any of the above then I would venture to say that you are not a very honest person.

Do you have anything in your life that you haven’t turned over to God?

Do you think that gay people would go to a movie with a gay supporter in it? Sure they would. And just like the Wadoni tribe who were living a life that was contrary to God so are they. Is it possible for them to turn back to God, sure it is.

It is sad that so many of you seem to have forgotten that it isn’t about casting people out because they are different but leading them and guiding them to a different way, Gods way, walking His trails and not their own, that trail that is not of God.

I say this…. if you are a pastor, or just a Christian…go see the movie…it will touch your life I promise. Get past Chad Allen being gay and see how God worked in the lives of these men, and an entire tribe has changed their ways because God continued to work in the lives of 5 men who gave their lives so that others could live, worked in their wives, their children, the grandchildren and now their great grandchildren. The Wadoni did repent, and that is seen in this film, they did turn from their sinful lifestyle and turn to God’s ways…. it happened for them it can happen for anyone.

Please, I beg you, do not cast an ugly mark on something that God so clearly had His hand in. The theater tonight was packed, sold out as a matter of fact. AMEN! God is still working through those 5 men today.

God can work in and through any person and any situation. He is still in the business of miracles just like he has been since the start of time. Reach out to someone who is different from you… show them God’s trail.

ladigrace ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 11:29 pm

Lee is right in saying that the whole story of Chad has not been written; but mind you, much has been written already.Just go to his fans site chadallenonline.com. The home page has a display:”Vote for Chad for Queer Favorite for 2005″ He “came out” in 2001.But these discussions are not about Chad.He has made choices for his life. He will continue to perform whether he has a role in EOS or not. Our discussion is about the recognition of responsibility of choices we(Bible believing Christians)make within the biblical teaching(example:Nanette’s posting.)We are not holier than “thou”; but we are to desire and live lives holy like Jesus.The casting of a homosexul for a lead role whose character sacrificed his family and life to follow Jesus’ command in the Bible just comes across as inconsistent in what we believe in the Bible. Nothing against the gay as an actor. It’s all about what we say we believe in and what we do.
Pastor Byron, do you plan on forwarding these to Mart Green?

Penny ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 11:30 pm

Hadn’t thought about it, Penny, to tell you the truth. This thread began, of course, with my allowing Jim Hanon, director of the movie and a man with whom I had a cordial email conversation, posting what he wanted to say in response to the controversy; he is a brother in Christ, and I wanted him to be able to give his side of the story. As Christians, we need to be able to talk with each other about these issues without calling names or casting aspersions. I will consider what the best response to this might be when all of the dust settles, and go from there. Thanks for your gracious posting, and for that matter, to all who, regardless of position on this issue, post with Christian grace and tact.

Byron ~ Jan 20, 2006 at 11:58 pm

The five missionaries who were killed reach out to a tribe of fierce killers and changed their lives forever. Maybe by allowing Chad Allen to play Nate Saint (and he did a wonderful job - I saw the film tonight), Chad’s life will be changed also. Imagine if he ends up becoming a Christian because of playing this role. What a testimony that would be.

Michelle ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 12:12 am

I just got back from the movie & wanted to see if there were any reviews…I was pretty shocked that the lead guy was gay. My flesh says that flies in the face of the lives that were given to further the gospel. I hate that this is causing division & controversy, BUT Jesus did that all over the place.Also,I was thinking of the jokes that could be made ..

If Steve Saint or the director knew & cast him anyway. I am grieved. Did they look at his resume & see his previous work?? Look at film on him?? Being an actor myself, I can’t help but think there are some incredible Christian actors that could have filled this role amazingly.

On the other hand in the Spirit, I am thinking I bet Nate Saint & the guys didn’t check fist to see if the natives were gay or not before they went into that jungle to spead the gospel..( neither did Jesus)

As for the end of Chad’s story, I will pray… I am still praying for Charlton Heston (Moses) to receive the Lord.

I believe God is in control & can use all things for the good of those who love him. We love Him and I truly believe people will get saved, gay & otherwise. Our God is in charge not us.His hand allowed this. “Every knee shall bow every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” God Bless You all & Pray for Chad, the movie is a done deal.

Karen J ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 2:29 am

The casting director said that they did NOT know that Chad was gay when he was cast. When they found out it was difficult to decide what to do. They decided to keep him and show him the love of Christ in the process of making the film, knowing that it was going to create issues. The Saints were part of the decision making process. He also said that Chad was aware of the risk the movie makers were taking for him. (imo, it shows a lack of charity on Chad’s part not to bow out, and causes me to wonder about his motivation, however, he was definitely shown grace by ETE, wasn’t he…I hope that has an impact on Chad’s life)

I saw the film last night and I thought it was a really good portrayal of forgiveness and sacrifice. If you are looking for a movie that will evangelize, this isn’t it. What it does is tell a story of WHAT happened, from the Waodani point of view, but doesn’t get too deep into the missionaries’ motives and purposes. The gospel IS there, if you want to call it “watered down” you may, however, the acting and script are very good and it’s not a big leap to make inferences as to why it all happens. IOW, if you want to compare it to movies like LOTR or LW&W, at least this movie it’s obvious it’s about God LOL !!

The movie is valuable to people who know and understand the story. I would also say that it is an EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT way to start a very meaningful conversation with a non-believer. Pre-evangelistic is how you could describe this movie.

The cinematography was gorgeous. Knowing about Chad Allen’s lifestyle led me to pray for him as I watched the movie.

If you go to the movie expecting it to be a typical Christian production, you will be disappointed.

And those are my thoughts.
Sherry

sherry ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 7:57 am

Michelle,

Regardless of where we stand on this issue, I’d hope that all of us could agree that that would be a wonderful outcome, and worthy of praying toward that end!

Byron ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:02 am

Instead of criticizing this movie because of an actor who was chosen…because this negativity will keep people away from the movie, why not focus on the story? What if the Lord himself chose Chad Allen in this role? He chose Paul who was a big persecutor of Christians..and he certainly allowed this young man to play this part for a reason. How do we expect people living in homosexuality to want to become like Christ if all we show them is rejection and disdain?

I will see the movie, because I am familiar with the story. I’ve been a born again believer for more than 10 years, but I do not stand in agreement with those who vehemently attack this young man. That is not what Christ would do…not even close.

Ro ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 2:19 pm

Ro, I’m sure that there are some people who are “vehemently attacking” Chad Allen; that’s not what this discussion is about, though. I disagree with his casting in the part in no uncertain terms, and perhaps there have been some here who have attacked him, but with you, I do not stand in agreement with those who vehemently attack Chad Allen. He should be shown the love of Christ.

Your analogy, though, of Paul falls flat on one major point: God chose Paul out of a lifestyle of persecuting Christians, but He changed Paul before He used Paul, remember.

Byron ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 2:30 pm

I am a Born Again Christian who has served the Lord Jesus in Lay Ministry supporting U.S.Armed Forces and their Families for over two decades of my life as director of “OPERATION:EAGLE”. You can review all about me and “OPERATION:EAGLE” at http://www.operationeagle.org.
I have read The Journals of Jim Elliot-Through Gates of Splendor and Shadow of the Almighty.
In my 20 Years of Lay Ministry to the Troops, I did not stop my own ministry efforts because I might run across someone who was gay or may be a gay activist.
We Christians should rejoice that Chad Allen has become associated with the film END OF THE SPEAR–because and solely because GOD is on the Throne and knows every small detail. Has it ever occured to everyone that maybe-just maybe-GOD is at work in Chad’s own life?
Pray for Chad Allen and all he comes into contact with. Pray that the film will prosper and magnify the Lord Jesus.
We live in uncertain times- where people exists across the globe who are plotting and desirous and want to kill and murder every single solitary “Christian” and American and “Westerner” that lives and refuses to submit to radical jihadists doctrine. Jim Elliot,Nate Saint and the rest of those Missionaries knew the risk and went anyway- because they served a GOD who changes lives. They showed us how to live and die for Christ Jesus by Loving those who were their “enemies”, that taught us what being a true Soldier in God’s Army must consists of .
Today American Soldiers are defending YOUR Freedoma nd Liberty and keeping YOU safe from danger and sacrificing their lives doing so- so that YOU can have this discussion. I have stood in hospital rooms at WALTER REED ARMY MEDICAL CENTER and listened to Soldiers who have lost arms and legs and eyes, and who have been there at the end of the spear, the crucible of the War on International Terrorism. You know what they want more than anything? a Unified people.
Prayer and Mercy and Love for each other.
But this will not happen until and when the salt in our society- professing Christians learn what it really means to be Christian—it means to be Christ-like. Not self-righteous legalistic modern-day 21st century Pharisee’s and Sadducees.
Remember what 2 Corinthians 3:17 says. Memorize it. Live it- Then once having done so–”Go out and do Likewise.”

Chaplain Bill Herrmann
1st Timothy 1:12-15 Isaiah 40:28-31
Matthew 25:35-40
OPERATIONEAGLE@COMCAST.NET

Chaplain Bill Herrmann ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 3:44 pm

Chaplain Bill,

What a great ministry you have! I really commend the work you are doing in ministering to those on the front lines representing our country. You are a front-line guy yourself, and we need more of your kind doing what you’re doing; God bless!

That said sincerely, I cannot “rejoice” that Chad Allen was cast in this role. I think that you have drawn a poor parallel, and so if you wander back here and would care to respond, let me give you what I think is a better parallel, the real issue, because I have “run across” homosexual folks in my ministry as well, and it didn’t stop me either. Frankly, though I doubt this would happen, I’d be thrilled beyond belief if Chad Allen were to visit my church service! He’d be welcome!!! But that’s not the parallel…

The parallel with what’s happening here would be if an unregenerate homosexual activist applied to be a fellow chaplain alongside you in your ministry, a co-spreader of the message of the gospel. See, that’s a closer parallel, to my mind, than the one you drew. Would you welcome this individual to be a representative of Christ alongside you, even without coming to faith in Christ, or renouncing homosexual activism? If your answer is “yes”, I’ll commend you for your consistency—but wholeheartedly disagree with your decision.

God is on the throne; I have prayed and will pray for Chad Allen as well! You’re right; we need Christians to be salt and light, not self-righteous legalistic modern-day 21st century Pharisees and Sadducees!

Byron ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 4:12 pm

There is no such thing as the perfect church, the perfect Christian, the perfect movie. But End of the Spear comes darn close. I actually don’t care about the casting, unless Chad came on at the beginning and said, “Hi, I’m gay and proud of it!” The work of this film is in God’s hands. I gave it a great review at my site. I don’t know Chad Allen even though I was at his site today. There is much to be said about loving/judging as Christians. I am very sad this has all been said. The movie is just too good for this kind of bantering.

cwv warrior ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 5:43 pm

Byron, in Matthew 7 (v. 1-5) Jesus very specifically tells us NOT to judge. That’s why I consider that “pride.”

I went to see the movie before going to work this afternoon. I cried through half of it. I’ve met Steve Saint and Mame (grandfather) Mincaye several times, and somehow Mincaye always remembers me. Any chance I get–I’ve driven to San Diego, Albuquerque, El Paso, Denver, all over to see these two speak–I go to hear the story again. This story doesn’t lay any stock in theology or any of the particulars that we’ve started arguing about here; the emphasis is on the only important thing, accepting God’s Grace and Mercy. Scripture says that if it is true in our hearts, it will show in the way we live.

I have been born again since I was 13. As a little kid, I was always angry, rebellious, and reclusive. When I gave my life to God, I changed in some ways, but I was still unhappy that I felt I couldn’t be myself. I started teaching Sunday school when I was 16, and began teaching anti-gay rhetoric soon thereafter. If anyone had told me then that I would “come out” as a lesbian, I’d have reminded them where liars go. But when I was 24, I realized that I was gay and there was nothing in this world that could change it. I had known it all along, and tried my hardest to change it. I begged God to take it away from me, not because of anything that convinced me in scripture, but because the Christian culture that I had been immersed in from a young age required that I be like everyone else.

Let me ask all of you this: is it the Spirit that’s guiding you, or is it a feeling, an emotion, that makes you so passionate about believing that God hates gays? Jesus very specifically spoke against divorce, but He never–NOT ONCE–spoke about homosexuality. How many of you have been divorced and remarried? And there has been much debate recently about the proper translation of the words we now define as “homosexual” in the English version of the original Greek texts.

When Jesus went to the homes of people He wanted to minister to, He didn’t ask what their sins were. Even if He didn’t know, He wouldn’t have asked. He didn’t care. All He wanted was the person’s heart. That’s all you should care about. While I’ve been where you are now and I understand the whys and wherefores, I no longer agree with you. I don’t think Steve Saint cares, and I don’t think Mincaye cares.

Mel ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 6:58 pm

I’m not familiar with who made this movie, but if it was made by a “Christian” company, why couldn’t they have hired a Christian to play the part of Nate Saint. Chad Allen isn’t the only actor who could have played the part.
The Bible says not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. That is true in our marriages, close friendships and business partnerships. What fellowship does darkness have with light?

Dianne ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 7:08 pm

Chaplain Bill,
thanks for your insights…
Byron, God is in control, so he allowed this to happen. Will this young actor ever want to be a Christian when he is facing so much rejection from believers. I’ve watched hollywood actors often mimick those people that they play. Perhaps being in the “shoes” of some one as godly as he plays would have a positive effect on him…but there is too much controversy over his involvement, which I’m sure would keep some one away.

Ro ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 7:48 pm

Also, if I went through all of the diatribes and dialogues above…I would cite several cases of attacks on this actor. Let’s just be grateful as Christians we have some representation at the theaters when there are some very overtly homosexual positions out in movies that are “award-winning” and drawing seekers in right now( e.g. Brokeback Mountain, Transamerica, and Capote). By the way, these movies are all played by Heterosexual actors who are actually promoting acceptance of alternative lifestyles and deviance. Those are the things we should focus on and if boycotting is to be done, there is where it should be done.

Ro ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 7:53 pm

Mel,

I don’t hate gays, I don’t believe that anyone else who has posted here does either, and I can’t see where you got that idea at all.

Jesus didn’t waste time asking people what thier sins were, you’re right But He did take the time to tell them what they were - He didn’t excuse sin, He forgave it.

sherry ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 7:55 pm

My latest thought on this issue is this: I have to question if satan is causing this hub bub just to keep Christians away who might be motivated to go evangelize after seeing this movie…it’s a known fact that few Christians share their faith on a regular basis and I think that seeing this movie will give American Christians a reality check that these men were speared to death for trying to share their faith - we face nothing close to that kind of risk (at this point.)

Not that everyone needs to see this movie to be inspired to be concerned about eternal matters such as people dying and going to hell daily, but it is just a thought I had.

So, I will be going conscience free to see it - and I do not condemn anyone who doesn’t. If it is sin for you, don’t go.

Heather ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 8:33 pm

I’ve gotten that impression all my life. Listening to my mom, listening to the people I’ve gone to church with, and yes, I think some people here DO in fact hate gays.

It is irresponsible to speak of gays as though they are in need of a new life. “Reach out to a gay person with the love of Jesus?” I understand the love of Jesus perfectly well, and I enjoy it every day. I don’t believe being gay is a sin the way I used to. You should read “Stranger At The Gate” by Mel White, another man I’ve met and adore.

Hate comes in all different forms. If you spend most of your time working against the so-called “gay agenda,” then yes, I’d say you have an underlying hatred. No one sin should be focused on more than any other. And the problem I see in the church (as it relates to gays) is that being gay isn’t just any old sin to you–it’s THE sin. I don’t expect anybody who isn’t gay to understand my acceptance of this. It wasn’t easy for me to accept. But I am much happier now, and God hasn’t stopped blessing me.

Mel ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 8:37 pm

Mel, Let me ask you if you mean being gay is not a sin, or do you mean living in a gay lifestyle is not sin? Someone may be gay, but not live in the lifestyle, that is not sin, whn they indulduge in the gay lifestyle is when it is sin. Certainly, since you confess Christianity that is your belief.

Stu ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:00 pm

Mel, you certainly bring an interesting point of view to the discussion, and I’m glad you’ve joined it. For the record, I don’t hate gays; I don’t have a vendetta against them; I don’t think that homosexuality is “THE” sin; I don’t spend much time working against the “gay agenda” (though I do believe that it is destructive). One of the interesting things to explore, either on this post or in another place, is the actual definition of the word “homosexual”, or “gay”, in common parlance. You said that you were “celibate”. I commend you for that—very honestly! I have some disagreements with you at the same time…but I think that, while there are folks who hate homosexuals, there are many, many of us who certainly do not.

Further, while Chad Allen is the impetus for this becoming an issue, my beef continues to be with ETE. I’ve spent no time (nor will I) “bashing” Chad Allen; in fact, if you read all my comments, you’d see that I’ve mentioned once or twice that I found some things for which to respect him.

But I want to know a couple of things: one, aren’t you judging when you say that you think that some people here hate gays? Two, have you taken the time to interpret Matthew 7:1-5 in its context to find out what Jesus is actually saying? Matthew 7:1-5 gets my vote as the most misinterpreted text in the Bible. You don’t need to go any further than verse 6 to understand that Jesus isn’t giving anything approaching a blanket prohibition on “judging”—for what He encourages us to do (unless one takes the position that he’s talking about not throwing our jewelry into a pigpen, literally) involves judging just who it is that qualifies as “swine” before whom we should not “cast our pearls”. Also, I’ve made two posts now on the subject of “Why I Judge (And You Should Too). I’d urge you to read them and interact with the arguments I make there, on both the necessity of judging, and the necessity of judging with righteous judgment, instead of unrighteous (and how we know the difference).

Byron ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:03 pm

And to Ro, perhaps you could judge some of the remarks made to be attacks against homosexuals; I cannot, of course, control who posts nor what they post (well, I can edit out blatantly offensive material, of course). I also hope that you’ll see that my intent is not in any way to attack them, and that you’ll see that I have personally not done that, nor will I.

Byron ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:08 pm

I must admit,at first I also had to wrestle with the casting of Chad Allen in the role of a dedicated Christian missionary. After reading the multitude of email thoughts on this I’ve concluded that Almighty God can and will use this film to further His Kingdom. Our God is much bigger than all this controversy. I read a thread on the “Enter the Tribe” section of the “endofthespear.com” website. Some of the production crew told how Chad Allen sensed more loved from them than he even received from his own family. By the way , I think that Chad Allen did a fantastic acting job. He did not diminish the the powerful message of the film. As Brothers an Sisters in Christ let’s focus on the positive…. that this great retelling of modern day martyrs was actually put to film! To see their tremendous sacrifice was moving. To watch the surviving relatives continue to fulfill the mission to reach the Waodanis was personally challenging. Then to see the tribes’ repentance demonstrated before my eyes brought to me new meaning that Heaven’s multitude will one day be of “every tribe and tongue”! Glory to God! Let’s key on the positives of this movie. It’s a film about forgiveness,sacrifice,reconciliation and the power of God to change lives. Maybe The LORD will use Chad Allen’s participation in this film to open up his heart to the true message of the Gospel.That is, that God loves everyone (even Chad) and sent His own Son, Jesus, to die for their sins ( even Chad’s sins). Let’s all unite together and covenant in prayer for Chad’s salvation. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Chad comes to know the Lord Jesus as his own personal savior?! What a testimony that would be! If God can save the Woadonis ( and you and me ), God will have no problem reaching out to Chad. Read 1 Corinthians 6:11, “such were some of you”. Also take a look at the website “dennisjernigan.com and click on his personal testimony. Dennis was a former homosexual whose life was transformed by God’s power. He now has a completely new identity. He’s a married man with 9 children. He’s the man who wrote that well known christian song, “My All in All”. Let’s pray,” Lord we pray that you will reach out to Chad Allen with your loving arms of forgivessness and salvation. Lord. we ask that you will break down his walls of resistance and soften his heart to the truth that you love him. Help him, Lord, to see his need of forgiveness, salvation and a new life. Speak to him Lord, in a way that only you can. “For God so loved the world (Chad) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (Chad) believes in Him ,shall not perish but have everlasting life”!
“whosoever (Chad) calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. In Jesus name we pray, amen.

Mike from RI ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:43 pm

I know this has been stated, but are you all aware that Nate Saint’s son wrote the book End of the Spear, Steve Saint along with the other family members all helped and even were in the movie. This issue was prayed over and it was a very difficult choice for them to make. As I have stated before I know the Saints personally and trust me they were allowing God to guide this movie not men, not themselves as He has lead all their lives since before that fateful day in 1956.

That being said I have to ask for those of you who are so outraged at Chad Allen being in this movie, do you not think that God can and will work through this and use this in the lives of people? Do you all trust God and allow Him to have complete control of things? If you do then you must realize that all involved were trusting God and Chad Allen was placed in that role not by men but by God. Nothing and I do mean nothing, happens by chance, God always has a reason, ALWAYS.

I don’t know but I think there is way to many of you more upset about this then you are upset about the souls of men. Instead of debating and trying to figure out the why and why nots of the casting why not pray for the many lost people who will see this movie. Pray for ALL the actors, the families, all involved. You do so much more good on your knees before God.

Have faith in the God you claim to love and stand for. Have faith that with God ALL things are possible.

ladigrace ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:48 pm

To Mike from RI - AMEN - very well said.

ladigrace ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:49 pm

Can’t imagine anyone here disagreeing with that prayer, Mike, nor that sentiment regarding Chad’s salvation. Thanks.

Byron ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 9:54 pm

I’d like to hear each person’s individual definition of the “gay lifestyle.” Not what others think, I want to know what you think.

Mel ~ Jan 21, 2006 at 11:18 pm

ladigrace - You are right on!

Anika ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 2:57 am

Mel,

I’m not sure how relevant a discussion of the definition of the “gay lifestyle” is - but I am curious about how you came to the conclusion that homosexuality isn’t a sin. You mentioned divorce earlier, and I do know a man (church lay-leader) who carried on an affair for years, left his wife to marry the other woman, and dismissed it all since he’s under “grace”. This is absolutely ridiculous. But he twisted the scriptures to justify his sin. I think that people who struggle with faith and same-sex attraction do the same thing - there’s such a strong desire to make it “OK” to do what we want.

I would also add that I agree that homosexuality is one of “THE sins” as you said that get a lot of focus. Fortunately I don’t have to deal with the same focus on my own worst sins that I struggle with. But all sin is destructive.

I read an excerpt of a transcript of Chad Allen’s interview on Larry King - and it appears Chad has also come to believe that it’s not a sin either. This just stumps me totally. Are there scriptures that you use to support your position?

Thanks.

sherry ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 8:07 am

Mel,
Living in the “gay lifestyle” would mean to be succumbing to the sin, actively engaging in these sexual acts which are forbidden by God to His people. We are all sinners saved by Grace if we have repented of sin. Not only confessing but turning away from it. I was once a person filled with anger…when people told me that anger was a sin…I said no way…this is a natural feeling God has given me. I would say “He wired me that way.” However, through His grace He showed me over time how that anger led me to sin so easily. He also showed me that it was sin itself in some contexts. It was destructive to me and others.

From a previous statement you made about “God hasn’t stopped blessing me.” Do you think when God allows good things in your life to occur that he is giving you the “stamp of approval” on all your acts and choices? If so you are believing a lie. I hear others who are always talking about how “blessed” they are in their lives when their lifestyles and character are in opposition to God (I’m not just speaking of homosexuality…I’m talking of lifestyles of deception, selfishness, greed. Matthew 5:45b says “He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous.”

Those of us who are His know that He does not approve of sin, not ours or anyone elses…but through His mercy He continues to let us live so that we may come to Him and to have the opportunity to be sanctified until we leave this earth. We are to show that kind of love to others so that they may see Him in us.

Ro ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 8:09 am

Mel, since you asked, let me offer an opinion that I believe to be Scripturally-accurate and reasonable—even though it will probably hit you like a ton of bricks, but hear me out. You said that you are celibate (which, of course, I commend). If you are committed to celibacy as a matter of faithfulness to God, then I do not believe that you are a lesbian. Now please, it’s not that I’m calling you a liar; that’s not my point at all. It’s that I believe that you are buying into thinking that has its basis in something other than Scripture.

Go with me on this, and please don’t feel threatened! I believe that homosexual activity (ALL sexuality outside of marriage, for that matter) is sinful, and as well that we cannot tinker with God’s definition of marriage. Now then, you stated that you at some point realized you were gay. I do not agree with that analysis. What I believe that you realized was that you had an attraction to people of the same sex. I do not believe that a same-sex attraction, however strong, makes a person homosexual, and here’s why: I do not believe that temptation equals sin. I also do not believe that there is any Scriptural warrant for a person to identify herself on the basis of temptation.

I no more condemn you for your temptation toward homosexual sex than I do a person for being tempted to gossip! In fact, if you have those temptations, and say “no” to them, I commend you greatly! Where I disagree is with your choice to call yourself a lesbian on the basis of that which you are tempted to do. If I am tempted to shoplift, I am not then a shoplifter—until I actually shoplift. Even going a step further, you could make the argument that to wear a title as a label, a person would need to be given over to the commission of that act. For instance, say I stole a candy bar when I was 18 (I’m 45 now, but a young 45!!!). Am I a thief? Well, yes and no! Sure, I would have stolen once, but 27 years later, is my life characterized by theft? Of course not…and thus, it would be more inaccurate than accurate to call me a “thief”.

If you have been tempted by homosexuality for 8-10 years, but have never given in—I do not believe you are a lesbian. In fact, even if you’d given in once or twice, I’m still not sure I’d call you that.

Now of course, what I call you is not necessarily relevant to the way you live your life—but since you asked, I wanted to give you a perspective that I’m quite sure you won’t get from Mel White.

Your friend,

Byron

P.S. This discussion has taken a turn toward homosexuality, which is not the real issue here, and thus, I’m going to make some things clear in my next post.

Byron ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 1:14 pm

And here is that post: this thing with Chad Allen, ETE, and EOTS is categorically not about homosexuality. Period.

Let me elaborate (well, it’s my blog, so you have no choice!). I object to the casting of Chad Allen in EOTS because he is an unbeliever living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and working to undermine the very message that Nate Saint lived and died for. That does not, by the way, make him the world’s worst sinner; it sure doesn’t mean he’s beyond the reach of God’s amazing grace; it doesn’t mean he isn’t a nice guy; I’d be thrilled to buy him dinner. But he is an unrepentant, unbelieving sinner working to undermine God’s truth.

The point is not that he is a homosexual, nor even a homosexual activist. Let’s envision a different scenario: let’s say that Chad Allen were a non-Christian, a problem gambler 10’s of 1000’s of dollars in debt, and were a leading advocate for not having to pay back money lost via gambling. Or let’s say that Chad Allen were hetero, and a professing Christian, but had divorced his wife for no good (Scriptural) reason, and were a leading advocate to overturn Christian morality on the subject of marriage and divorce. Name any other sin, where the person was justifying open sin and seeking to give his life to the overturn of God’s truth regarding that sin. I would be exactly as opposed to his casting in that role as I am with Chad Allen. Every bit as opposed. Period.

Because it’s not about homosexuality. It’s about how Christian organizations, be they churches, Christian schools, parachurch ministries, or filmmakers, go about the promotion and propagation of the gospel.

Now…we can have a difference of opinion about that, to be sure. When we do, though, the Christian thing is to have a rational discussion on the subject. Do you know perhaps the most frustrating thing about this whole thing to me? I’m going to tell you: it’s that so few Christians want to really think and interact with the issues at hand. We want to emote. We want to feel. We don’t want to deal with the subtleties of an argument, and for Heaven’s sake, the last thing we want to do is to consider the tiny possibility that we might be wrong. Want to talk about pride?

You don’t have to agree with me; I might just be wrong (and many of you think I am). But to call names, to impute motives, and to be so lazy in our thinking that we aren’t willing to try to deal with an argument? That’s what’s frustrating.

Sorry for the rant. Somebody respond with reason and Scripture.

Or just call me a bad name and crucify my motives…I’ve gotten pretty used to it by now.

Byron ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 1:30 pm

It’s pretty funny to see all this overwrought handwringing over the casting choice of an actor in a B-grade movie that will be off the radar screen in 4 weeks. Check out the hypocrisy too: the same people who thought it was perfectly acceptable for the perfect and sinless Christ to be portrayed by a mortal sinner in The Passion are now in a tizzy that a mortal sinner named Saint is being portrayed by a mortal sinner named Allen. Gee, where was all the outrage when the son of God was portrayed by a rotten tainted sinner like Jim Cazaviel? How dare Hollywood allow a man who lies and lusts to portray the perfect Christ, huh?

Kathleen ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 2:11 pm

Let me just that all people are sinners, saved or not. The difference is one is going to heaven and one is not. There is not one single sin that unsaved person can commit that a saved person cannot commit and most cases probably has committed. If any one you think differently then you are missing important scripture.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
2Co 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

I am sure that we could all find something about every person who plays a Christian role and denounce them for a sin or imperfection in their lives.

God can and does use people and situations, both unsaved people and saved people, good and bad situations.

The simple fact of the matter is this as far as I am concerned.

End of the Spear is a touching and awesome film. We may or may not agree on the casting of Chad Allen in the role of Nate/Steve Saint. What matters is this… the story is out there it shows a world that is out to one up each other and kill each other with violence and words and other means that people can turn from their ways and turn towards Gods ways.

I have to wonder if you are even aware of why the Wadoni agreed to do this film. It is because they were told about Columbine and they wanted to show people how they were killing each other and stopped so that maybe we could too.

The point of the movie was not to give glory to men, filmakers or causes but to reach out to a lost world, and show them how God’s grace and goodness can make a difference in a violent troubled world. I don’t think any of you would disagree with the fact that we do indeed live in a violent and troubled world.

None of us are perfect. We all have made mistakes and will continue to be imperfect until the day we join the Lord in eternity.

Do you think that if God didn’t want this movie to go forward it would have? Do you think that if His hand wasn’t upon it that it would have done as well as it did on the opening night?

God is in control. He knew who had been cast in the movie and He allowed it. No matter what you think.

As for my thoughts on the gay lifestyle. I believe it is one that is an abomination to the Lord just as the bible says. I don’t think it is healthy for anyone to be involved in. But I am not going to cast judgement upon these people. I hate the sin not the sinner.

ladigrace ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 3:26 pm

Byron, I absolutely agree on this: we need to be able to have a civil discussion rather than an emotional argument. That’s why I’m here and not in other chat areas. And I understand exactly what your intention was with your post on EOTS, but you had to know that the comments would, in fact, turn in this direction. I haven’t been threatened by anything you’ve said.

I got a lot of the same comments when I started getting my tattoos (people quoting the “abomination” passage from Leviticus). The trouble with quoting the ceremonial law that you’re quoting is simple–have you ever had a ham sandwich? Played with a football? Eaten crab, shrimp, or lobster? All of those are forbidden in the same passage. In his letter to the church in Galatia, Paul climbed all over a group of believers who had decided to pick and choose which parts of the ceremonial law to follow and which ones to ignore–and then chastised anyone who didn’t live exactly the way they did. As for the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the bible doesn’t say that God destroyed those cities for their “homosexuality.” He destroyed them because of other more ghastly offenses, such as sacrificing children to idols, not taking care of the old and ridiculing the poor rather than helping (amongst other things). Is there anything else in the OT that anyone might have contention with? I know what ideas are coming from the NT, but I’m not going to say it just yet since I tend to write novels every time I respond to someone.

I am celibate because I believe that sexual promiscuity–not homosexuality–is sin. I have some friends who have a new partner every night, and I find no interest in that sort of thing at all. I’m not in it for nothing more than their form of sexual gratification; I want a solid relationship with someone who will love me for the rest of my life. I have a cousin who’s found it. Homosexual behavior has been documented at zoos all over America, and it is typically a species’ defense mechanism–when a group overpopulates an area, some of its members prefer the same sex partners from birth to put a natural stopper on the procreation. I think it’s perfectly natural, and God once forbade it long ago for the sole purpose of making sure the Jews were completely different from ALL other nations. I don’t think anyone is sinning by throwing a winning touchdown with a ball covered in pigskin, nor do I believe it’s a sin to have a same-sex attraction.

It is as natural to me as breathing. If I could choose, I would choose to be straight; my life would be easier ad infinitum. Be that as it may, I’m a lesbian, and I believe God made me that way. As for the aversion to it by most Christians today, I think it’s another emotional response (I could be wrong, but that’s my working theory). Take my brother, for example…awesome guy, awesome soldier, has no objections to women being gay, but paranoid as all get-out of gay men. I think it’s a reaction to something some people don’t understand. I’m not attracted to all women, just as gay men don’t have the hots for every man they see. I want another lesbian; I do not find straight women attractive in the least.

As to why I started this thread, I don’t understand why we have to make a hullabaloo about a gay actor being chosen for a role as a martyr when I’ve come to believe that being gay is not the eggregious sin it’s been made out to be.

Mel ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 5:53 pm

Please see this recent interview with Steve Saint concerning the controversy.

http://www.thechurchreport.com/content/view/873/67/

Carole Turner ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 6:11 pm

Well said, Mel. I see no more reason to view a gay orientation or relationship as a sin than I do to regard eating shellfish or wearing clothes of mixed fibers as a sin just because Leviticus says so. The Old Testament is full of absurd notions — men can’t trim their beards, tattoos are forbidden, misbehaving children should be stoned to death, you can’t touch the skin of a pig — that civilized societies have long rejected.
The Leviticus-quoters would be a lot more convincing if they swallowed all Levitical laws themselves, which of course they don’t do.

Kathleen ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 6:31 pm

Mel and Kathleen,

You are both very off in your rationalization of what is sin and what isn’t. This is what the Pharisees did…always trying to rewrite the law. Homosexuality may be seen in other species, but we are higher beings given a spirit. We were not created as sexual beings first, but as spiritual beings. Both the Old and New Testament condemn the sin of homosexuality, just as many other sins of the flesh are condemned. It is sexual immorality, just like fornication, extramarital affairs and lewdness are.

Please see my earlier post about your views of how “blessings” seem to communicate to you that God approves of your “coming out,” as it were.

Ro ~ Jan 22, 2006 at 6:54 pm

Ro, I believe you are off in your account of what the Pharisees did. The Pharisees were the elite, highly educated, rich religious leaders. They took it upon themselves more often to point fingers at others and excuse themselves, and they used scripture to do it most of the time; the rest of the time they just used their status as “God’s chosen leaders.”

I read your post about blessings. At no time did I say that it was blessings alone that convinced me. It is a number of things. What scripture says, and again in some cases DOESN’